is the hate justified?
这份恨意有道理吗？
这份恨意有道理吗？
do i update or not?
我更新还是不更新？
>>109427918
Yes. Garbage language.
是的。垃圾语言。
>>109427918
the hate is outdated. all things considered it's probably the best memory-safe language.
这恨意过时了。综合考虑，它可能是最好的内存安全语言。
it just werks, has a vast and mature ecosystem, is truly cross-platform and has a gui toolkit out-of-the-box.
它就是能用，有庞大成熟的生态，真正跨平台，还自带GUI工具包。
the committee working on the language is incredibly disciplined and selective.
那个语言委员会工作起来极其严谨，选词也非常讲究。
I'm always tempted to try other languages, but they always happen to be retarded in some major way.
我老是想试试别的语言，但那些语言总会在某些大方面上缺根筋。
>>109427929
criticizing without offering an alternative is easy.
光批评却提不出替代方案，这事儿谁都会做。
>>109427924
update what?
更新啥？
>>109428038
This guy is in every post about java saying how hava is cross platform and has cross platform UI. Yeah, if you want the shitties possible UI, it has one. Retarded take.
这家伙在每篇关于 Java 的帖子里都说 Java 跨平台还有跨平台 UI。是啊，如果你想要最烂的 UI，它确实有。这观点真是脑子进水。
>>109428506
this guy is in every thread blaming his tool for the shitty UI he makes. jk, you're a nocoder anyway.
这家伙在每条帖子里都怪工具，说是工具害他做出烂 UI。开玩笑的，反正你也是个不写代码的人。
pro tip: there are in fact other UI libraries. you don't have to use the one provided out-of-the-box.
小贴士：其实还有别的 UI 库，你不一定非得用自带的那个。
it's retarded to shit on an extra that other languages don't even provide at all.
去喷一个别的语言根本不提供的附加功能，这本身就是脑子有病。
also imagine being outraged about someone being pro-Java in a Java thread.
再说了，居然有人在 Java 帖子里因为别人挺 Java 而愤怒，也是醉了。
didn't know that only haters are allowed. lmao.
我还以为只有黑子才准发言呢。笑死。
>>109428038
The heckin' GUI toolkit is literally legacyslop that's not in active development anymore.
那个破 GUI 工具包简直是遗留垃圾，早就不在积极开发了。
Other than that, I don't see how C# is not better. Well okay, C# doesn't have LTS and Java does, which is a big thing.
除此之外，我真看不出 C# 哪里不好。好吧，C# 没有 LTS 而 Java 有，这是个大差别。
>people used to hate java because of the jvm
>以前人们因为 JVM 讨厌 Java
>now "people" ship entie chromium instances with their kuso
>现在“人们”往垃圾软件里塞一整个 Chromium 实例
>people used to make fun of gentoo for long compile times
>以前人们嘲笑 Gentoo 编译慢
>now "people" use rust
>现在“人们”用 Rust
times have changed
时代变了。
>>109427918
Why is the logo a coffee cup?
为啥 logo 是个咖啡杯？
>>109428506
swing is fine, even better than native os look as designers went mad, got rid of scrollbars and made buttons indistinct.
Swing 挺好的，甚至比原生系统外观更好，因为设计师疯了，把滚动条去掉了，还让按钮变得模糊不清。
swing buttons still look like buttons.
Swing 的按钮看起来还像按钮。
>>109427918
Right now there is no hate towards Java. The Java vs .NET battles ended a long time ago, many years ago.
现在没人恨 Java 了。Java 对 .NET 的战争早就结束，好多年前就完了。
I (and my ai agents) write in Java both for work and for personal needs. I think the language and the ecosystem around it are some of the best available today. If you want syntactic sugar, Kotlin is always there, but syntactic sugar has also been added to Java itself over the last few years.
我（还有我的 AI 助手）都用 Java 写代码，工作上的和个人需求都写。我觉得这门语言和它周围的生态是现在最好的之一。你想要语法糖的话，Kotlin 一直都在，不过 Java 这些年自己也在加语法糖。
At the same time, almost any corporation or large company likely has tons of backends written in Java. It used to be Spring, and now Quarkus is actively used too.
同时，几乎任何大公司都可能有大量用 Java 写的后端。以前是 Spring，现在 Quarkus 也在大量使用。
>>109429213
Swing is a legacy framework. But it just works. Yes, it is old, but it is supported on macOS, Windows, and Linux. Desktop applications are not popular right now, which is why the framework is not heavily maintained. Most of Java is backend. As for comparable frameworks, the only one I know is Qt. Lately a lot of different things have appeared in Rust like Tauri, but usually the GUI is rendered through a WebView rather than custom or native controls. Actually, even Qt does not use native controls, but it draws its own instead of using a webview. Swing is the same.
Swing 是个老框架，但它就是能用。是的，它老，但它支持 macOS、Windows 和 Linux。桌面应用现在不流行，所以框架维护得不勤。Java 大部分用在后端。至于能比肩的框架，我就知道一个 Qt。最近 Rust 那边冒出了很多像 Tauri 之类的东西，但通常 GUI 是拿 WebView 渲染的，而不是自定义控件或原生控件。其实 Qt 也不用原生控件，它是自己画，而不是用 webview。Swing 也是一样。
It is hard for me to say what exactly I miss in Swing. I use it for my personal utilities and sometimes maintain a couple of apps at work.
我很难说清 Swing 里到底缺啥。我自己写小工具用它，工作中偶尔也维护几个应用。
>>109428506
swing is old but it's ok. you can create good looking UIs with swing too, especially with llms.
Swing 是旧，但没关系。用 Swing 也能做出好看的 UI，尤其是配合 LLM 之后。
As far as I can tell, hating on Java was the thing non-programmers did to masquerade as programmers in programmer circles like online forums. Saying you dislike Java (and not elaborating at all) is like the programming equivalent of those people who pretended to be gamers in gamer circles just for the attention, saying things like "the cake is a lie".
就我所知，讨厌Java这件事，是非程序员为了在程序员圈子里冒充程序员才做的事，比如在论坛上。说你不喜欢Java（而且一点不展开解释）就像是游戏圈里那些假装是玩家只为博关注的人，说些“蛋糕是个谎言”之类的话。
The thing that's most odd about this is that was over a decade ago. And they still repeat it.
最奇怪的是，这都十多年前的事了，他们还在重复这套。
So it was a huge red flag then, and now it's an even bigger red flag because it's outdated too.
所以那会儿这就是个大红旗，现在更是大红旗，因为连这说法都过时了。
It's a very likely chance that anyone complaining about Java in 2026 is a first year programmer at most. Way out of touch.
2026年还在抱怨Java的人，极有可能顶多是一年级程序员，完全跟不上时代。
>>109429348
>supported on macOS, Windows, and Linux
>支持macOS、Windows和Linux
>the only one I know is Qt
>我唯一知道的就是Qt
Uhh, are you a time traveler from 2010 perchance? Electron literally just works on all 3 platforms, and you can make it look however you want a lot easier than with Java. Obviously JS doesn't have the same performance as Java, but you don't need it anyway in most cases. Desktop development is a niche.
呃，你怕是2010年穿越来的吧？Electron在这三个平台上基本开箱即用，而且你还能比Java更轻松地把它做成你想要的任何样子。显然JS没有Java那样的性能，但大多数情况下你根本不需要。桌面开发本来就是个冷门领域。
Electron is in active development (not legacy), allows you to make UIs without proprietary special snowflake humiliation rituals, and it's good enough.
Electron在积极开发中（不是遗留技术），能让你做UI时不用搞那些专有的、特别矫情的“特殊雪花”仪式，而且它够用。
>>109427918
I can only speak from a DevOps perspective. If you are maintaining legacy Java SE and JEE 1.8.0 applications, yes. It's dog shit.
我只能从DevOps角度说。如果你在维护老旧的Java SE和JEE 1.8.0应用，那确实是狗屎。
If you're using 21+ it's a little easier to deal with. I don't know anything beyond trying to deploy applications our developers write (monolithic).
如果用21+版本，处理起来会稍微轻松点。除了部署我们开发人员写的那些（单体）应用，别的我也不太懂。
>>109429449
>Electron
>without proprietary special snowflake humiliation rituals
>不用专有的、特别矫情的“特殊雪花”仪式
lol
>>109429260
I love statically compiled standalone binaries, but being able to swap the runtime/VM out dynamically is appealing. Running the same program with different configurations and optimizations at the runtime level on demand without needing to rebuild is cool.
我喜欢静态编译的独立二进制文件，但能动态替换运行时/虚拟机也很有吸引力。在不重新构建的情况下，按需以不同配置和优化跑运行时级别的同一个程序，挺酷的。
But ultimately I'd still rather have static programs with sane build systems. Rebuilding all of your software should be equally as effortless as swapping the VM and it just isn't, but if it was I'd probably prefer that to VM languages.
但归根结底，我还是宁愿要静态程序加上靠谱的构建系统。重新构建你所有软件应该和换虚拟机一样轻松，可惜现实不是这样；但要是真能做到，我大概会更倾向那个而不是虚拟机语言。
>>109429516
java can be packaged as a standalone binary without needing the host machine to have java installed.
Java可以打包成独立二进制文件，不需要宿主机器装Java。
I don't develop desktop apps, but if I did I would do that.
我不开发桌面应用，但如果我做了，我会这么干。
I'm a Java dev but I don't think users should be required to have a runtime installed. that's annoying.
我是Java开发者，但我觉得不应该要求用户装运行时，那很烦人。
>>109429449
Yes, I mentioned in my post that modern frameworks require a WebView when it comes to Rust. In the case of Electron, a Chromium engine is needed.
对，我在帖子里提过，现代框架在Rust那边需要WebView。在Electron的情况下，需要Chromium引擎。
In this sense, Swing and Qt are among the few frameworks that do not require anything browser-based.
从这个角度说，Swing和Qt算是少数几个不需要任何基于浏览器的东西的框架。
Is Electron good? It is hard for me to say. I have used Obsidian, VS Code, Codex (GUI), Discord, Postman... I did not like these interfaces. At the same time, I am a big fan of JetBrains IDEs, and their tools are written in Swing with deep tuning. Maybe I am just biased, but these are just my feelings. I prefer older desktop interfaces, and Qt and Swing are much better suited for this than the modern mix of browser technologies running on the desktop.
Electron 好不好？这很难说。我用过 Obsidian、VS Code、Codex（GUI）、Discord、Postman……这些界面我都不太喜欢。同时，我是 JetBrains IDE 的忠实粉丝，他们的工具是用 Swing 写的，并且深度优化过。也许我就是有偏见，但这只是我的个人感受。我更喜欢传统的桌面界面，Qt 和 Swing 在这方面比浏览器技术跑在桌面上那种现代混搭要合适得多。
>>109429574
This is interesting to hear. I haven't checked on the state of static compilation in a while but last time I tried with something like graalvm it worked well for the things it worked with, but not every library would compile. This was a while ago though so things have likely advanced.
听你这么说挺有意思的。我有一阵子没关注静态编译的进展了，但上次我试像 GraalVM 这样的东西时，它对于能用到的部分效果不错，但不是每个库都能编译。不过那已经是很久以前的事了，进展可能已经很大了。
Around the same time, I was doing the same assessment for dotnet.
差不多同一时间，我也对 .NET 做过类似的评估。
I want to write in a functional language, but get the benefit of platform support and tooling. So I was considering Kotlin or F# but I didn't want to learn them if I couldn't easily cross-compile + static build them.
我想用函数式语言写代码，但又想获得平台支持和工具链的好处。所以我在考虑 Kotlin 或 F#，但如果不能轻松地跨编译和静态构建它们，我就不想学了。
I'll have to do research again on the current state of things. Watch me end up using SBCL instead of either.
我得再重新研究一下现在的最新情况。等着吧，最后我可能反而会用 SBCL，而不是这两个。
>I don't think users should be required to have a runtime installed
>我认为用户不应该被要求安装运行时环境
Strongly agree. Including bundling it since that just sidesteps the problem and worse multiple programs now have multiple copies of the runtime by their side.
完全同意。包括捆绑运行时也只是绕开了问题，更糟的是，多个程序现在旁边都带着各自的多份运行时副本。
>>109429613
>Kotlin
Fucken meant Clojure.
靠，我本来想说的是 Clojure。
>>109429574
How is this done? I'm stuck in the shadow realm of JRE/JDK 1.8.0 so it's always required for us to have a copy of Java runtime on the system.
这是怎么做到的？我还在 JRE/JDK 1.8.0 的阴影地带里困着，所以我们系统上总是必须得有一份 Java 运行时。
>>109429643
We have two options:
我们有两个选择：
1) jpackage+jlink. We simply bundle a stripped-down version of the JRE into our program. When creating the installation file, you just select the JRE modules that our program needs, and only those are included; anything unused from the JRE is left out. This is a normal JVM, just in a somewhat reduced form, and it can all be packaged into an .exe, .dmg, or .deb file.
1) jpackage+jlink。我们直接把一个精简版 JRE 捆绑到程序里。创建安装文件时，你只需选择程序需要的 JRE 模块，只包含那些；JRE 里没用到的部分就全剔除。这是个普通的 JVM，只是稍微缩小了一点，而且可以全部打包成 .exe、.dmg 或 .deb 文件。
2) Graalvm. This is full compilation into a true binary file. The downside is that if your code actively uses reflection, compilation probably will not work. Unfortunately, Graalvm cannot fully handle the Java reflection found in a regular JVM.
2) GraalVM。这是完全编译成真正的二进制文件。缺点是如果你的代码大量使用反射，编译很可能行不通。可惜的是，GraalVM 无法完全处理普通 JVM 里的反射机制。
>>109429613
I haven't tried it but jLink sounds interesting. It's included in the JDK.
我没试过，但 jlink 听起来挺有意思。它包含在 JDK 里。
It creates a custom runtime from only the modules that you actually need.
它只从你实际需要的模块创建一个自定义运行时。
in most cases it should result in a much smaller runtime than the JVM.
大多数情况下，它应该会得到一个比 JVM 小得多的运行时。
>>109429714
Very cool. I'll check this out when I'm not procrastinating on other things.
太酷了。等我不再拖延别的事情时，会去看看这个。
>>109427918
Hate is never justified.
仇恨从来都不是合理的。
>>109429925
I hate niggers
我讨厌黑人
>>109429612
Honestly, Tauri looked interesting to me, but unironically expecting me to write Rust for a desktop and mobile meme app is completely out of touch with reality. If it used a more sane language, it could be super popular.
说实话，Tauri 对我来说挺吸引人的，但认真地期望我为桌面和手机上的搞笑应用写 Rust，这完全不现实。如果它用了更靠谱的语言，可能会超级流行。
To me, VSCode feels like a very solid program in general, and it feels as if most people just hated it because it's cool to hate on electron. In comparison, MS Teams is a disgrace to humanity (afaik it doesn't even use electron anymore).
对我来说，VSCode总体上感觉是个非常扎实的程序，而且感觉大多数人讨厌它只是因为黑Electron很酷。相比之下，MS Teams简直是人类的耻辱（据我所知它甚至都不用Electron了）。
InelliJ doesn't feel as good as its fans say it should (e.g. scrolling feels really jank), but it's overall fine. I like old desktop UIs too, but I'd go for a better developer experience over native looks or feel. Not that Swing looks native (it looks soulful though).
IntelliJ用起来没有它粉丝吹的那么好（比如滚动感觉真的很卡），但总体上还行。我也喜欢老式桌面UI，但我会为了更好的开发者体验而放弃原生外观或手感。不是说Swing看起来原生（不过它看起来挺有灵魂的）。
>>109429974
They can't help having a much bigger wiener than you.
他们没办法，就是比你多一根大屌。
You might want to stick to Rust, as then you can pretend you're a tranny and not be so embarrassed.
你可能还是坚持用Rust吧，这样你就能假装自己是个变性人，不至于那么尴尬。
>>109429480
tell them that you'll only accept docker images from them. that way they have an incentive to make running the thing easy
告诉他们你只接受他们给的Docker镜像。这样他们就有动力把运行那玩意弄简单了。
>>109430866
A white tranny cuck said this.
一个白人变性龟男说的这话。
no but arguably the hate toward a certain style of java code is
不是，但可以说对某种Java代码风格的恨意确实是这样。
see jetbrains IDEs for a great example of java software
看看JetBrains的IDE，就是Java软件的好例子。
>>109429993
Just use Tauri and have AI write the rust for you.
直接用Tauri，让AI帮你写Rust代码就行了。
>>109431258
It runs on top of WebView. You understand, right, that there's not much difference between an Electron app and one built on Tauri or similar frameworks (like Wails for Go)?
它跑在WebView上。你懂吧，Electron应用和基于Tauri或类似框架（比如Go的Wails）构建的应用之间差别不大。
Ultimately, it's all executed on Chromium's V8 engine (or JavaScriptCore for MacOS). All rendering still happens through the browser's rendering engine.
归根结底，全都跑在Chromium的V8引擎上（或者MacOS上是JavaScriptCore）。所有渲染还是通过浏览器渲染引擎完成的。
Java applets were great and they should have just fixed the security chasms rather than wait 30 years for WASM. I had such a positive experience with applets I'm absolutely baffled by people that hate them.
Java applet本来很棒，他们应该直接修复安全漏洞，而不是等WASM等30年。我对applet的体验非常正面，所以完全搞不懂为什么有人恨它们。
>>109431436
for some reason for java applets they chose to keep plugging the holes that get discovered instead of building from no exposed surface area upwards.
不知道为什么，他们面对Java applet选择不断地补发现的洞，而不是从一开始就不暴露任何表面往上构建。
>>109427918
yes
>>109431258
No way fag. I could learn Rust if I wanted to, but I'm still not going to use it for this because it's simply not meant for these tasks. It's like telling someone "hey there's this super cool le revolutionary cross platform framework and it can do desktop and mobile and mainframes and satellites and it's rendered in a webview it's super easy oh btw you have to write your business logic in C++ btw and that's a good thing btw :^)".
想得美，死基佬。我要是想学Rust早学了，但我还是不会用它做这个，因为它根本不适合这类任务。这就像跟人说“嘿，有个超酷的革命性跨平台框架，能做桌面、移动、大型机、卫星，UI用webview渲染，超级简单，哦对了业务逻辑你得上C++写，这还是好事儿呢 :^)”。
I would much rather use Electron. Sadly, that doesn't support mobile platforms. The only realistic cross-platform mobile solutions are Flutter (warning: made by Google, uses its own weird language nobody asked for) and React Native.
我宁愿用Electron。可惜它不支持移动平台。唯一现实可行的跨平台移动方案就是Flutter（警告：谷歌做的，用自己那套没人要的怪语言）和React Native。
>>109427918
it's good for drones churning out enterprise slop.
对批量产出企业垃圾的码农来说是好事。
it's bad for anyone with a soul.
对任何有灵魂的人来说都是坏事。
>>109431436
People hated them because on most machines of the era, they'd bog down as the runtime environment was loaded in from disk and then the applet slowly initialized. People would embed applets in their webpages without warning, so you'd click on a link to a page and suddenly have to deal with everything becoming slow as molasses due to the runtime loading. Most of the time, people hitting the page weren't even interested in the applet but it was still there, fucking up everyone's experience.
人们讨厌它们是因为在那个时代的多数机器上，它们会把系统拖慢——运行时环境从磁盘加载进来，然后小程序慢慢初始化。人们会在网页里嵌小程序而不提前警告，所以你点个链接进页面，突然就得忍受一切变得跟糖浆一样慢，因为运行时在加载。大多时候，访问页面的人根本不关心那个小程序，但它就在那儿，把所有人的体验搞得一团糟。
>poorfag
Which brings up the "well, fuck you" attitude of people who made applets. They were sure they were inventing the future and anyone who spoke up about any of the legitimate complaints were dismissed as troublemakers and Luddites.
这就引出了做小程序那帮人的“去你妈的”态度。他们确信自己在发明未来，任何对合理抱怨发声的人都被当成捣乱分子和卢德分子打发掉。
>>109429265
because every *.class file starts with CAFEBABE hex
因为每个 *.class 文件都以 CAFEBABE 十六进制开头
>>109431844
>Swing
Clojure
>JavaFX
Clojure
>web frontend
>web 前端
ClojureScript
>Flutter
ClojureDart
>shell scripts
>shell 脚本
Babashka (fast-starting Clojure interpreter with numerous useful libs baked in)
Babashka（启动快的 Clojure 解释器，内置一堆有用的库）
btw Clojure does the backend in the JVM just as well. seriously Clojure is the best language I have tried and I've written a lot of Go, Python, JS/TS, Rust, and Elixir. I've tried other languages too but those are the ones I have written the most of.
顺便说，Clojure 在 JVM 上做后端一样顶。说真的，Clojure 是我试过的最好的语言，我写过大量 Go、Python、JS/TS、Rust 和 Elixir。我也试过别的语言，但那些是我写得最多的。
I use Hiccup to replace writing HTML and HoneySQL to replace raw SQL
我用 Hiccup 替代手写 HTML，用 HoneySQL 替代原始 SQL
>>109427918
No. It runs on 3 billion devices.
不。它跑在 30 亿台设备上。
>>109431436
Because Java applets were just external applications embedded into the page.
因为 Java 小程序只是嵌在页面里的外部应用程序。
If you ignore that JS is a shittier language, the HTML DOM scripting is literally the whole point of having a language runtime in a web browser. Otherwise you can just download an exe and get the same experience as a java applet.
如果你忽略 JS 是个更烂的语言，那 HTML DOM 脚本本来就是浏览器里放语言运行时的全部意义。不然你直接下载个 exe 就能得到和 Java 小程序一样的体验。
>>109431345
Anon said the problem was rust, not using a WebView, retard. Also on Linux Tauri uses WebKitGTK like on macOS.
匿名用户说的问题是 Rust，而不是用 WebView，白痴。另外在 Linux 上 Tauri 用的就是 WebKitGTK，和 macOS 一样。
>>109431844
Why bother learning a programming language when AI does it for you? Honest question.
既然 AI 都能替你做了，干嘛还费劲学编程语言？真心求问。
>>109432033
>Clojure
I just looked it up. I have to congratulate you for bringing it up. Finally I language I would absolutely choose to use Rust over for writing a desktop/mobile meme app.
我刚查了。我得恭喜你提这个。终于有门语言写桌面/手机 meme 应用时我绝对会选 Rust 而不是它。
>>109432052
WebView comes with its own problems, but it's not a dealbreaker like Rust.
WebView 有它自己的问题，但不像 Rust 那样是致命伤。
>Why bother learning a programming language when AI does it for you?
>既然 AI 都能替你做了，干嘛还费劲学编程语言？
Mindlessly vibe-coding stuff without understanding the language and the design leads to unmaintainable slop. This is acceptable for some small and simple programs, but not for more complex stuff.
不理解语言和设计就盲目 vibe-coding 会搞出没法维护的垃圾。这对一些简单小程序还行，但对更复杂的东西就不行了。
AI is extremely useful for learning new languages and frameworks too.
AI 对学新语言和框架也极其有用。
>>109432052
If AI does it for you, why don't you have it make GTA 6 and become a millionaire? Honest question.
如果 AI 能替你做了，那你为啥不让它做出 GTA 6 然后当百万富翁？真心求问。
>>109427918
It's shit, but it works, but it's shit
它很烂，但能用，但它就是烂
>>109432130
how is it shit? at least pretend like your opinion is based on reason.
它怎么烂了？至少假装你的观点是基于理由的吧。
>>109432060
>Finally I language I would absolutely choose to use Rust over for writing a desktop/mobile meme app.
>终于有一种语言，我绝对会选择用它而不是 Rust 来写桌面/移动端 meme 应用。
ok lil bro
行吧小老弟
>>109427918
yes java was the begining of tech dying. The original slop, king slop.
是，Java 就是科技衰落的开端。最初的垃圾，垃圾之王。
>>109432052
>Why bother learning a programming language when AI does it for you? Honest question.
>有 AI 帮你写代码，为啥还要费劲学编程语言？真心求问。
because I already know several and AI is a waste of time, all LLMS do is plagarise.
因为我已经会好几种了，而且 AI 纯浪费时间，所有 LLM 干的事就是抄袭。
>>109427918
actually completely fine until you actually have to build and deploy your app. what a fucking pile of trash. maven, gradle, xml configs. literally every other language you just fucking run. literally even rust compiles faster AND JAVA ISNT EVEN A COMPILED LANGUAGE.
实际上一切都还好，直到你真得要构建和部署你的应用。真他妈一堆垃圾。maven、gradle、还有 xml 配置。基本上其他语言直接跑就完事了。连 rust 编译都比它快，而且 Java 根本算不上编译型语言。
>>109429698
just to add to what this anon said, using java's jlink creates a platform specific jvm (operating system and arch)
补充一下这位匿名说的，用 Java 的 jlink 会生成特定平台的 JVM（针对操作系统和架构）。
>>109432480
Java is a compiled language.
Java 是编译型语言。
>>109432480
Java is compiled—just not to your CPU.
Java 确实是编译的——只是不是编译成你 CPU 能直接跑的。
>>109428506
I can name four ui kits for Java off the top of my head. AWT, Swing, JavaFX, and SWT. I'm sure there are several more. What can your language do? So electron shit? Bloat.
我能随口说出四个 Java 的 UI 框架：AWT、Swing、JavaFX 和 SWT。肯定还有更多。你的语言能做什么？Electron 那类狗屎？臃肿得很。
>>109432480
>rust compiles faster
>rust 编译更快
[X] Doubt
[X] 表示怀疑
>>109428038
>the hate is outdated. all things considered it's probably the best memory-safe language.
>这些黑点早过时了。综合来看它可能是最好的内存安全语言。
wrong, the hate is as relevant as ever, this shit consume and waste memory like nothing else, jenkins has lost the CI/CD war because it's java shitware and I've seen many other such case where I work, it just leaks and leaks and there is nothing you can do about it, all the jvm implementations are equally dogshit, including graalvm and including compiled to native binary.
错了，这些黑点现在照样适用，这玩意比什么都吃内存、浪费内存，Jenkins 已经输掉了 CI/CD 大战，因为它就是 Java 的垃圾软件，我在工作里见过一大堆类似的案例，它就是一直泄漏一直泄漏，你根本没办法，所有 JVM 实现都一样烂，包括 graalvm，也包括编译成原生二进制的。
>it just werks
>它就是能用
no it does not
不，它不能
>has a vast and mature ecosystem
>拥有庞大且成熟的生态系统
maven is as dogshit as ever and barely works as intended.
maven 还是一样烂，几乎没法按预期工作。
>is truly cross-platform
>真正跨平台
lmao no
哈哈他妈怎么可能
>has a gui toolkit out-of-the-box.
>自带 GUI 工具包
javafx and swing suck
javafx 和 swing 都烂透了
>the committee working on the language is incredibly disciplined and selective.
>负责这个语言的委员会极其自律且有选择性
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I know some of them, also had some others as professors at uni over a decade ago, they're pompous, obnoxious retards who don't care about users and make all the wrong decisions whenever possible
我认识其中几个，十多年前上大学时还有一些当过我的教授，他们就是一帮自大、令人作呕的蠢货，根本不在乎用户，只要有可能就做出所有错误决定
>I'm always tempted to try other languages, but they always happen to be retarded in some major way.
>我总是很想试试其他语言，但它们总会在某些重大方面显得智障。
just use Chashtag which mog this dying poojeetware
直接用 Chashtag 吧，把这种垂死的破烂软件按在地上摩擦
>>109427918
>is the hate justified?
>这些黑点合理吗？
Yes the hate is definitely justified but it's not all bad.
是的，这些黑点绝对有道理，但它也不是一无是处。
>>109428038
>the hate is outdated.
>这些黑点早过时了
People are still using fucking XML as a configuration format because Java popularized it.
就因为 Java 把 XML 推广开了，现在人们还在用那破 XML 当配置文件。
Nah.
I got hired at a bank because of it.
我靠这个在一家银行拿到了工作。
Spend a few weeks writing a microservice in spring boot, claude did all the work.
花几周在 spring boot 写个微服务，全是 claude 干的活。
Got promoted, got a salary raise.
升职了，加薪了。
It's allright.
还行吧。
>>109428038
>the committee working on the language is incredibly disciplined and selective.
>负责这个语言的委员会极其自律且有选择性
Yeah they've been refusing to add string interpolation and nullability syntax for what 3 decades now and let me guess that's a good thing?
是啊，他们拒绝加字符串插值和空值安全语法，这都快三十年了吧，我猜你要说这是好事？
Yes. Bad programming language. Bad platform. Bad owner (oracle).
没错。烂语言。烂平台。烂东家（oracle）。
>>109433104
>many other such case
>一大堆其他类似案例
lots of people are saying this
很多人都这么说
>>109427918
replaced by JS
被 JS 取代了
>>109433132
>XML
it has comments and you can paste shit into it and autoformat. if you are lucky you even get a schema so you get red squigglies immediately if you fat fingered the pasting. twice the lines of yaml usually, but not hunting for cryptic errors because indentation is wrong is worth it imo
它至少能有注释，能把东西粘进去自动格式化。运气好还能有 schema，粘贴时手滑了立刻就有红色波浪线提示。通常比 yaml 多一倍的代码行，但我觉得不用为了缩进错误去找那些莫名其妙的报错，还是值的。
>>109432050
But that's a good thing: run a program in the browser's vm. The web is more than html. It took decades to get back to that basic idea.
但这是好事：在浏览器虚拟机里运行程序。互联网不仅仅是HTML。花了数十年才回到这个基本的想法。
>>109433196
>string interpolation
>字符串插值
still on the menu, they pulled it once because the design wasn't up to standards
还在菜单上，他们曾经撤下过一次，因为设计没达到标准。
>nullability syntax
>可空性语法
it's in the works because that's needed for memory efficient value type representation
正在开发中，因为这对内存高效的值类型表示是必需的。
nah
well, if you're unfortunate enough to work on anything below java 8, then yeah
嗯，如果你不幸得在Java 8以下的版本上工作，那确实是的。
otherwise, it's been a serviceable language ever since. i'd use C# over it any day though.
否则的话，从那以后它一直是个能用的语言。不过我还是宁愿用C#。
>>109433427
>the browser's VM
>浏览器的虚拟机
The whole reason they removed Java applets is because they were the opposite of this. They literally just ran whatever.jar directly on your computer with fully privileged system access (same as running an exe file) and communicated with the external process to embed it into the webpage.
他们移除Java小程序的整个原因是因为它们与此相反。它们实际上就是直接在你的电脑上运行任何.jar文件，拥有完全的系统权限（就像运行exe一样），并通过外部进程通信来嵌入网页。
>>109427918
>is the hate justified?
>这些黑点合理吗？
it's not enough
这还不够。
>>109427918
i would say yes and no, sometimes it just works, and others it doesnt, sometimes the OOP shit comes in handy, other times no, all comes down to what you are trying to do with it, i mostly use it as python for simple automation and data handling operations so i dont "need" the OOP shit and it gets in the way, but its nice to have when you need it, like this automation script for parsing the output of the xedit script "_0_SSG - Check for Missing Textures 1.0.1.pas", Yes i should make it read the mod and load order properly, but this would be countless hours and sleepless nights to make a parser for mod files (.esp, .esl, .esm) and bsa archives, proper load order handling with record and file overwrites etc, no form version 44 libraries exist for java, there is skyproc but thats for LE / form version 43 and upgrading it would be a delicate operation onto itself
我会说是的也不是，有时候它管用，有时候不管用，有时候OOP那套东西帮得上忙，有时候帮不上，全看你想用它做什么。我大多把它当Python用，处理简单的自动化和数据操作，所以我不“需要”OOP那套东西，它反而碍事。但当你需要时它还是有用的，比如这个解析xedit脚本“_0_SSG - Check for Missing Textures 1.0.1.pas”输出的自动化脚本。是的，我应该让它正确读取mod和加载顺序，但要做个能解析mod文件（.esp、.esl、.esm）和bsa存档的解析器，处理好记录和文件覆盖等加载顺序，那得花无数个小时和不眠之夜。Java里没有form 44的库，有skyproc但那是给LE/form 43用的，升级它本身就够棘手了。
>>109429213
>C# doesn't have LTS and Java does, which is a big thing.
>C#没有LTS而Java有，这是个大事。
how the fuck is it a big thing
这怎么他妈算大事了
why do you need your programming language to have "support", kek
你为啥需要你的编程语言有“支持”，kek
there is no organization that offers "support" for C or C++ and yet people can still use those languages without issues
没有任何组织为C或C++提供“支持”，但人们照样用这些语言没出问题。
>>109427918
public class Program {
公开课节目{
public static void main(String[] args) {
公共静态无效主（字符串[] args）{
System.out.println("Java is too fucking verbose");
System.out.println("Java太他妈啰嗦了");
}
}
Also all the GUI options are heavy enough that as a user I can feel the difference between a Java program and a native one.
还有所有GUI选项都重得让我作为用户能感觉到Java程序和原生程序的区别。
Apart from that, it's a fine language.
除此之外，它是个不错的语言。
>>109434367
void main(String[] args) {
无效主（字符串[]参数）{
IO.println("Hello World");
IO.println("你好世界");
}
>>109434325
>how the fuck is it a big thing
>这怎么他妈算大事了
>why do you need your programming language to have "support", kek
>你为啥需要你的编程语言有“支持”，kek
>there is no organization that offers "support" for C or C++ and yet people can still use those languages without issues
>没有任何组织为C或C++提供“支持”，但人们照样用这些语言没出问题
By "support," it means that the OpenJDK developers will patch vulnerabilities and bugs in the JVM. You are right that the language specification itself does not change. The Java 25 language will remain the same in 2030. However, OpenJDK 25 will receive updates.
所谓“支持”指的是OpenJDK开发者会修补JVM中的漏洞和bug。你说得对，语言规范本身不变。Java 25的语言在2030年还是一样的。但OpenJDK 25会收到更新。
The analogy with C++ is partly incorrect. The C++ language specification is developed by a committee, while compilers like GCC, Clang/LLVM, and MSVC are made by corporations. All of these compilers receive regular updates and patches just like OpenJDK.
拿 C++ 来类比有一部分是不对的。C++ 语言规范是由委员会制定的，而 GCC、Clang/LLVM 和 MSVC 这些编译器是公司做的。这些编译器都像 OpenJDK 一样会定期收到更新和补丁。
>>109429265
"java" is an old term for coffee
“java”是咖啡的旧称
Gets mogged by Kotlin nowadays + Kotlin has Kotlin/Compose multiplatform meaning you can basically write UI-heavy desktop, web and mobile apps all in one codebase AND natively
现在被 Kotlin 碾压了，而且 Kotlin 有 Kotlin/Compose 多平台支持，基本上你可以用一套代码写 UI 密集型桌面、网页和移动应用，还是原生的。
Flutter and Reactbabbies could never
Flutter 和 React 宝宝们永远比不了
Java is literally only alive because of the jvm and legacy code
Java 现在活着纯粹靠 JVM 和遗留代码
>>109433104
>jenkins has lost the CI/CD war
>Jenkins 已经输掉了 CI/CD 战争
This is partly true, and right now you should probably choose GitLab CI/CD or GitHub Actions instead of Jenkins. But Jenkins is just very old. It appeared 21 years ago, in 2005. It is a fucking dinosaur from the CI/CD world.
这话有一部分对，现在你确实应该选 GitLab CI/CD 或者 GitHub Actions 而不是 Jenkins。但 Jenkins 只是太老了。它出现在 21 年前，2005 年。它是 CI/CD 世界里的恐龙级老古董。
For comparison, GitLab CI appeared around 2014, and GitHub Actions in 2018-2019. That is quite recently.
对比一下，GitLab CI 大概出现在 2014 年，GitHub Actions 在 2018-2019 年。那都是挺近的事。
At the same time, almost all enterprise companies here in Europe still use Jenkins and have no plans to migrate away from it. There is no problem with that in my opinion. You can easily live with Jenkins today. It is noticeably harder to configure, but nowadays you can easily handle all the configuration through an LLM. You no longer need to sit up at night reading manuals.
不过，欧洲这边几乎所有企业公司还在用 Jenkins，而且没有迁移的打算。我觉得这没什么问题。今天用 Jenkins 完全过得去。配置确实明显更麻烦，但如今你完全可以靠 LLM 搞定所有配置。不用再半夜坐那儿啃手册了。
Besides, GitLab and GitHub themselves are written in Ruby and a bit of Go. Is that really much better than Java?
再说了，GitLab 和 GitHub 本身就是用 Ruby 和一点 Go 写的。那真的比 Java 好到哪里去吗？
>>109434534
I agree regarding Kotlin for smartphones. Perhaps Kotlin KMP is also good for desktop but I never tried it. At least KMP backend is Skia and not some old Swing/AWT.
关于 Kotlin 在手机上的表现我同意。也许 Kotlin KMP 在桌面上也不错，但我没试过。至少 KMP 后端是 Skia，不是老掉牙的 Swing/AWT。
The catch is that all of this runs on top of the JVM. Yes, there are kotlin-js and kotlin-native (using LLVM), but the primary implementation of Kotlin, as well as the most popular and most used one, is Kotlin on the JVM.
问题是这一切都跑在 JVM 上。没错，有 kotlin-js 和 kotlin-native（用 LLVM），但 Kotlin 的主要实现，也是最流行最常用的实现，还是 JVM 上的 Kotlin。
At the same time, Java is gradually getting all the syntactic sugar that Kotlin had. Sooner or later, Java will even have null safety (probably in the year 2030 heh). Kotlin was extremely relevant around 2016 to 2020 when Java development was stalled and we were stuck on Java 8 for years, but that is no longer the case. With each passing year, Kotlin has fewer features to offer that are missing in Java.
同时，Java 在慢慢吸收 Kotlin 有的那些语法糖。迟早有一天，Java 甚至会支持空安全（大概 2030 年吧哈哈）。Kotlin 在 2016 到 2020 年左右特别吃香，那时候 Java 开发停滞不前，我们在 Java 8 上卡了好几年，但现在不是那样了。每过一年，Kotlin 能提供而 Java 缺的功能就越来越少。
>>109434400
hello.java:1: error: class, interface, enum, or record expected
hello.java:1: 错误：应为类、接口、枚举或记录
void main(String[] args) {
无效主（字符串[]参数）{
^
Yeah I didn't think that was a thing. I had to check though.
对，我本来也不觉得那是个东西。不过还是得确认一下。
>>109434534
Kotlin, Clojure ad Scala are literally wacky jesters in the court (jvm) of Queen Java.
Kotlin、Clojure 和 Scala 简直就是 Java 女王宫廷（JVM）里的疯癫小丑。
>>109434572
Which JDK version are you using? Install JDK version 25, and this code will compile and work.
你用哪个 JDK 版本？装 JDK 25，这段代码就能编译运行。
>>109434568
>but that is no longer the case
>但现在已经不是那样了
Holy cope
强装镇定呢这是
Javababbies don't even comprehend how fucked they are
Java 宝宝们根本没意识到自己有多惨
Kotlin now completely owns the Android market also basically any UI-heavy market vs. Java. In just one year, Kotlin multiplatform adoption doubled and if they get another year or two, it'll be more popular than both react native and flutter.
Kotlin 现在完全占领了 Android 市场，基本上任何 UI 密集型市场也压过 Java。仅仅一年，Kotlin 多平台的采用率就翻倍了，要是再给他们一两年，它会比 React Native 和 Flutter 都火。
From what I hear backend devs also usually pick Kotlin over Java when starting a new project
据我所知，后端开发开新项目时通常也会选 Kotlin 而不是 Java
>b-but muh syntactic sugar!!!
>但……但我的语法糖！！！
Is just a tiny part and even there Java is only now introducing features Kotlin had for 15 years. How is Java supposed to catch up with the absolutely massive amount of library ecosystems built up around Kotlin and IntelliJ products (which javafags have to use kek)?
那只是一小部分，而且就算在那方面，Java 也是现在才引入 Kotlin 都用了 15 年的特性。Java 怎么可能追得上围绕 Kotlin 和 IntelliJ 产品建立起来的庞大库生态（Java 佬还不得不用这些）呢，笑死？
>>109434594
17, haven't used it in a while and can't be bothered to update it, there'll just be a newer one by the next time I need it
17，好久没用过了，也懒得更新，等我下次需要的时候肯定又有新版了
>>109429213
>GUI toolkit is literally legacyslop that's not in active development anymore
>GUI 工具包简直就是老古董垃圾，已经不再积极开发了
That is not entirely true. Yes, they will not add anything fundamentally new to Swing or AWT in the coming years. However, development is ongoing, mostly in the lowest-level part of the Java GUI, which is Java2D. They are actively introducing Wayland support without XWayland, and Java2D itself will run on top of Vulkan, at least on Linux and probably on Windows because it has DirectX support, though an old version like DirectX 9. Support for Metal on macOS has already been present for several years.
这说法不完全对。是的，未来几年他们不会给 Swing 或 AWT 加什么根本性的新东西。但开发还在进行，主要是在 Java GUI 最底层部分，也就是 Java2D。他们正在积极引入不依赖 XWayland 的 Wayland 支持，而且 Java2D 本身会跑在 Vulkan 上，至少在 Linux 上是这样，Windows 上可能也会，因为它有 DirectX 支持，不过是很老的版本比如 DirectX 9。macOS 上的 Metal 支持已经有好几年了。
https://mail.openjdk.org/archives/list/wakefield-dev@openjdk.org/latest
>>109434712
>That is not entirely true
>这说法不完全对
>Yes, they will not add anything fundamentally new in the coming years
>是的，未来几年他们不会加什么根本性的新东西
Lmao
>>109434725
Actual full support for Wayland and Vulkan is literally fundamentally new. It's literally the foundation of all Java GUI rendering on Linux and probably Windows.
真正的 Wayland 和 Vulkan 全面支持就他妈是根本性的新东西。这直接就是 Java 在 Linux 上，可能还有 Windows 上所有 GUI 渲染的基础。
I get that you probably don't give a shit and expected to see new controls, widgets, frames, or something like that, but that's genuinely not coming to Java anytime soon. It's just not needed, simple as that. Swing is fine the way it is right now. You can't come up with something radically new and completely overhaul everything without breaking backwards compatibility.
我懂你可能根本不在乎，期待的是新控件、新组件、新框架之类的，但那些短期内真不会来。就是没必要，就这么简单。Swing 现在这样就挺好。你没法在不破坏向后兼容的情况下搞出什么颠覆性的东西然后彻底重写一切。
>>109434757
Correct, I don't give a shit because skia (compose multiplatform) already supports Vulkan and nobody gives a shit about wayland
没错，我根本不在乎，因为 skia（compose multiplatform）已经支持 Vulkan 了，而且没人鸟 Wayland
>>109429348
>I (and my ai agents) write in Java (...) for personal needs
>我（和我的 AI 代理）用 Java 写（……）满足个人需求
Jesus Christ.
我的天。
>>109428043
C# if you want corpo boiler plate code
想要企业级样板代码就选 C#
>>109429449
>Electron
why yes I need a full browser aka a partially sandboxed mini-os for javascript programs running just to draw a window on screen
是啊，我就需要一整个浏览器，也就是一个半沙箱化的迷你操作系统，跑 JavaScript 程序，就为了在屏幕上画个窗口
why not just ship a full VM with your program at that point and call it portable?
那为什么不直接连同虚拟机一起打包你的程序，然后管它叫可移植呢？
>>109433132
>People are still using fucking XML as a configuration format because Java popularized it.
>因为 Java 把它普及了，现在还有人他妈在用 XML 当配置文件格式。
well, java devs don't. they can stop anytime they wish.
嗯，Java 开发者不用啊。他们随时都可以不用的。
xml was a decent format, but there are better ones now.
XML 曾经是个不错的格式，但现在是更好的选择了。
>>109435186
They literally have to because nobody from boomer Java devs likes using gradle which was made readable with gradle kts and version catalogs
他们真就必须用，因为那些老古董 Java 开发者没人喜欢用 Gradle，而 Gradle 是靠 Gradle KTS 和版本目录才变得可读的
So they stick with maven kek
所以他们还是死守 Maven，笑死
>>109434978
Yes, packaging the runtime that guarantees the program will actually run makes the program just work instead of fucking shit up with dependency hell.
对，打包运行时能保证程序真的跑起来，而不是搞出一堆依赖地狱的烂摊子。
>why not just ship a full VM with your program at that point and call it portable?
>那为什么不直接连同虚拟机一起打包你的程序，然后管它叫可移植呢？
We do that too, and it's literally the only way to ship native apps on Linux if you want to guarantee they work. It's called Docker, and it solved what freetards refused to acknowledge for 30 years.
我们也这么做，而且这几乎是Linux上发布原生应用唯一能保证能用的方式。这叫Docker，它解决了那些自由党们三十年来拒不承认的问题。
>>109435303
That has nothing to do with the file format. I prefer Maven over Gradle because it's convention over configuration.
那跟文件格式没关系。我更喜欢Maven而不是Gradle，因为它默认约定优于配置。
Every Maven project is structured more or less the same, so the mental overhead of working with it is very low.
每个Maven项目的结构基本都一样，所以上手的心智负担很低。
That's despite Maven's build time being objectively worse.
尽管Maven的构建时间客观上来讲更差。
>>109434325
Basically what >>109434439 said.
基本上就是>>109434439说的那样。
Support means patching vulnerabilities. Without that, attackers have a neat list of vulnerabilities guaranteed to work on your systems.
支持意味着修补漏洞。没有这个，攻击者就有一份现成的漏洞清单，保证能在你的系统上生效。
Not offering proper LTS is the most retarded part of dotnet d e s u
不提供正儿八经的LTS是dotnet最傻逼的部分。
>>109427918
it ran on a flip phone, can your rust/go/whatever modern slop language do that
它跑在翻盖手机上，你的rust/go或者别的什么现代垃圾语言能吗？
>>109437055
rust can run bare metal without an OS grandpa
rust可以跑裸机无操作系统，老爷子。
java cant even run without a jvm runtime
java连没有JVM运行时都跑不了。
i don't like having to write class ObjectLoggerProviderFactoryServiceImpl
我不想写class ObjectLoggerProviderFactoryServiceImpl这种东西。
>>109437098
did java not invent namespaces yet or what lmaoo
java是不是还没发明命名空间啊，笑死。
>>109434534
>Kotlin/Compose multiplatform meaning you can basically write UI-heavy desktop, web and mobile apps all in one codebase AND natively
>Kotlin/Compose跨平台意味着你基本可以用一个代码库写UI密集的桌面、网页和移动应用，而且还是原生的。
You still have to write a significant chunk of the app multiple times for multiple platforms. This is not like Flutter.
你还是得为多个平台多次写相当一部分代码。这不像Flutter。
Java apps have not aged well. Always audibly groan when one of those clunker interfaces comes up after downloading a new app.
Java应用老化得不好。每次下载完新应用看到那种破界面我都不自觉地叹气。
>>109437098
who's forcing you to? uncle bob sitting behind you waiting to clobber you with a bat?
谁逼你了？Uncle Bob坐在你后面等着用棒球棍敲你吗？
>>109436463
>muh mental overload
>我的心智负担
>muh everything needs to be the same
>什么都要一样
Fuck off gobabby, if you can't handle freedom go back to your retardation
滚蛋吧，承受不了自由就回去吃你的屎。
>>109437299
every java codebase i have worked in
我待过的每一个Java代码库都是这样。
>>109434400
args are also optional
参数也是可选的。
void main() {
无效主（）{
IO.println("Hello World");
IO.println("你好世界");
}
>>109433454
>the design wasn't up to standards
>设计没达标
They could literally copy the design from C#. It's not exactly rocket science, given that every other language has this.
他们完全可以照抄C#的设计。这又不是什么高深的事，别的语言都有。
They could copy nullability too. I'm fine with their proposed syntax too as long as there's a way to opt in for default non-nullability.
他们也可以抄可空性。我完全不介意他们的提议语法，只要能默认非空并可选加入就行。
>>109433132
the java hate is justified,
Java被黑是有道理的，
the xml hate isn't.
XML被黑没道理。
xml is a great format.
XML是个好格式。
better than fucking json, or worse, yaml
比TM的JSON强，更别提YAML了。
>>109437422
too bad xml gets mogged by sexps
可惜XML被S表达式碾压。
>>109437353
>argless main is the biggest innovation in Java in 20 years
>无参数main是Java二十年里最大的创新
Lmao
It's verbose and memory hungry but very fast (contrary to general opinion). Enterprise morons and legacy codebases give it a bad name but it's here to stay, and has improved dramatically in recent years.
它冗长、吃内存，但非常快（和普遍观点相反）。企业傻逼们和遗留代码库给它抹了黑，但它会一直存在，近年来也改进很大。
>>109437230
>clunker interface
>破界面
>GTKLookAndFeel
lol
yeah, GTK sucks
对，GTK就是烂。
mogs C with memory safety
用内存安全碾压C。
mogs Rust with no unsafe
用无unsafe碾压Rust。
mogs Python with semicolons
用分号碾压Python。
mogs JavaScript with literally everything
用几乎所有东西碾压JavaScript。
write once, run anywhere
写一次，到处跑。
cross platform UI
跨平台UI。
I can run Eclipse on riscv
我能在riscv上跑Eclipse。
I can compile AOT and JIT
我能AOT和JIT编译。
I never break backwards compatibility
我从不破坏向后兼容。
20 year old jars still work
20年前的罐子还能用
>>109437478
compact object headers and value types should improve the memory usage.
紧凑的对象头和值类型应该能改善内存使用。
>>109437443
this btw
顺便说下这个
yet another point for Clojure with its EDN data format
这又给用EDN数据格式的Clojure加了一分
you motherfuckers will do anything but learn a Lisp
你们这帮傻逼啥都愿意学，就是不肯学个Lisp
>>109437809
>lisp
i'm more of an ocaml person myself
我自己更偏向OCaml
>>109437679
>mogs Rust with no unsafe
>不用unsafe就把Rust给碾压了
ono what's this? sun.misc.Unsafe
哦哦，这是什么？sun.misc.Unsafe
>>109437679
Doctor said we shouldn't intervene with his delusions
医生说我们不该干预他的妄想
>>109437679
>mogs Python with semicolons
>用分号就把Python给碾压了
>verbosity is a good thing
>冗长是件好事
>>109437422
XML is not great for configuration and people who think so are always ignorant of the alternatives and actual tradeoffs. Either they are just using XML when something like json would be obviously superior, or they are using XML for the DTD and validation aspect in which case they would be far better served with custom syntax and a custom validator. It would be far simpler and clearer, with out the need for all the excessive tag syntax.
XML不适合做配置，觉得它合适的人总是对替代方案和实际权衡一无所知。要么他们只是用XML，而其实像JSON这种东西明显更好；要么他们是为了DTD和验证功能用XML，这种情况下还不如用自定义语法加自定义验证器，会更简单清晰，省掉所有那些过度的标记语法。
XML is fine for documents. That is, actual documents where the bulk of the file is CONTENT parsed as CDATA, and where the XML tags are there to handle structure and metadata.
XML用在文档上挺好的。也就是说，实际文档大部分内容是当作CDATA解析的文本，而XML标签只是为了处理结构和元数据。
Retards from the era of Java, used XML for fucking everything. They used it for serializing everything. They used it for configuration files. They used it for fucking databases. XML is garbage for all of those use cases. It absolutely deserves every ounce of hate it gets and people who defend it don't get enough hate.
Java时代那些傻逼，啥都用XML。序列化用XML，配置文件用XML，连数据库都他妈用XML。对这些用途来说XML就是垃圾。它活该被骂成那样，那些替它辩护的人被骂得还远远不够。
>better than fucking json, or worse, yaml
>比该死的JSON好，或者比YAML更糟
No, it's not. Both of those formats have their problems but at least they are both usually used fairly reasonably for the purposes they were designed for. The the reason YAML became overused is that people really needed and wanted the solution that YAML seems to provide, a convenient human-writable format for the most common standard data types and structures. The only real problem is that it's overly complex and tried to solve too much. People wanted writable JSON while yaml is a "serialize-anything" format.
不，才不是。那两种格式都有自己的问题，但至少它们通常都在设计用途上被合理使用。YAML被过度使用的原因是人们确实需要并且想要YAML似乎能提供的那种解决方案——一种便于人类手写、覆盖最常见标准数据类型和结构的格式。唯一真正的问题是它太复杂，想解决的问题太多了。人们想要的是可手写的JSON，而YAML却是个“啥都能序列化”的格式。
Json is great as a simple and universally accessible data serialization format. If you are serializing data in a situation where you control both ends of the transmission, json is probably worse than a custom format (but not worse than XML). But if you're providing data to be consumed by random unknown clients where validation isn't criical (eg /g/catlog.json), json is superior:
JSON作为简单且通用的数据序列化格式很棒。如果你在能控制传输两端的情况下序列化数据，JSON可能不如自定义格式（但也没比XML差）。但如果你的数据是要供给随机未知客户端消费的，而且验证不是关键的话（比如/g/catlog.json），JSON就是更优的：
>>109427918
I never understood the difference between java and javascript. Are they the same thing? if yes why do they have different names? if no why do they have similar names?
我从没搞懂Java和JavaScript的区别。它们是一样的东西吗？如果一样，为什么名字不同？如果不一样，为什么名字这么像？
>>109440043
JavaScript is named that way for historical reasons. JavaScript and Java are nothing alike really. Java is very different. Technically speaking, it's not called JS, it's called ECMAScript. You can read the standard here: https://ecma-international.org/publications-and-standards/standards/ecma-262/
>>109440043
They are the same thing. Don't believe the retards trying to confuse you. Trying to prove they're not the same is "ackshually" tier mental gymnastics and it doesn't matter at all in practice.
它们其实是一回事。别信那些想糊弄你的白痴。费劲证明它们不一样是“实际上啊”级别的精神体操，在实践里根本无所谓。
>>109427918
Out of the 4 languages that matter, Python, Java, Javascript and C++.
在四种重要的语言里——Python、Java、JavaScript和C++。
Java is indeed the least shit.
Java确实是最不烂的那个。
It's unambiguous, has simple syntax, good performance tradeoff and a great history of backwards compatibility.
这个没有歧义，语法简单，性能权衡得当，而且向后兼容性历史很好。
>>109439975
>they are using XML for the DTD and validation aspect in which case they would be far better served with custom syntax and a custom validator.
>他们用XML来做DTD和校验，这种情况下自定义语法加自定义校验器会好得多。
yeah let's just reinvent the wheel instead of using a mature standard
是啊，咱们就直接重新发明轮子，别用成熟标准了。
>just using XML when something like json would be obviously superior
>明明JSON之类的东西明显更好，却还用XML。
the fuck does "just using XML" mean?
“就用XML”到底啥意思？
JSONiggers really can't make a good or fair point for their webshitter format, especially as a config file
这些JSON吹子真是没法为他们那种网页垃圾格式提出什么合理或公正的观点，尤其当配置文件用的时候。
if a real simple format is used, there are Properties files, which Java can read directly into a Map
如果真用简单格式，有Properties文件，Java能直接读成Map。
if a more advanced/structured format is needed, JSON is garbage compared to XML
如果需要更高级或结构化的格式，JSON跟XML比就是垃圾。
>>109440225
>yeah let's just reinvent the wheel instead of using a mature standard
>是啊，咱们就重新发明轮子，别用成熟标准了。
And here we see the mindless, braindead logic of people who wind up using XML.
这里就能看到那些用XML的人那无脑的、脑残的逻辑。
XML in fact forces you to "reinvent the wheel" in the sense you need to define something as simple as a list. You have to do all this work to specify and parse the XML stream or element tree or whatever preliminary data you get.
XML实际上逼着你“重新发明轮子”，因为连定义个列表这么简单的东西都得搞。你得花一堆功夫去指定和解析XML流、元素树或任何初步数据。
The question retards like you never ask is whether the XML part is actually providing you anything. XML makes you do all this work to assign meaning to the tags and attributes and CDATA. So long as you have to do all that work anyway, why not just do it with a format that actually fucking makes sense and is efficient for the data/configuration/etc that you want to express? You shouldn't waste a whole step parsing all the angle brackets and attribute bullshit, when you could just implement some simple and robust text parsing from the beginning.
像你这种傻逼从不问的问题是：XML到底有没有给你带来任何东西。XML让你费尽心思去给标签、属性和CDATA赋予含义。既然反正都得做那些工作，为啥不用一个真正讲得通、而且对你表达的数据/配置等更高效的格式呢？你就不该浪费一整步去解析那些尖括号和属性的破玩意儿，你本来一开始就能实现简单又稳健的文本解析。
>>109440138
>it's called ECMAScript
>这玩意叫ECMAScript。
it's named after the skin disease, in an attempt to gain popularity
它是用皮肤病名字命名的，想借此博取人气。
Hate against Java is not justified. It's not even as verbose as it used to be.
对Java的憎恨没啥道理。它也没以前那么冗长了。
>>109440343
>You shouldn't waste a whole step parsing all the angle brackets and attribute bullshit,
>你就不该浪费一整步去解析那些尖括号和属性的破玩意儿，
nigger, are you parsing XML manually?
黑鬼，你是手动解析XML吗？
you dumb bitch
你这个蠢婊子。
>>109427918
The criticism leveled against IDEs is more valid, I think. It's the same shit with C++. The language is fine but dedicated IDEs add so much bloat. Never understood the VSCode/netbeans worship when you can just alt-tab from emacs or whatever text editor you're using and compile in terminal.
对IDE的批评更有道理吧，我觉得。和C++一个德行。语言本身没问题，但专门的IDE堆了太多臃肿的东西。一直搞不懂为什么那么多人崇拜VSCode或netbeans，直接从emacs或随便什么文本编辑器切出来，在终端编译不就行了。
Java's garbage collection isn't great but that's not really an issue unless you're trying to make a triple A game or something. Java's UI libraries do suck donkey dick compared to something like fltk but all high-level languages have their own version of hemorrhoids.
Java的垃圾回收不算好，但除非你是做3A游戏之类的东西，这也不算大问题。Java的UI库确实烂得很，跟fltk没法比，但所有高级语言都有自己的痔疮版本。
>>109440225
>if a more advanced/structured format is needed, JSON is garbage compared to XML
>如果需要更高级或结构化的格式，JSON跟XML比就是垃圾。
For config files, YAML is a very good format. But don't use it as input from untrusted sources; it's got horrors in its dark corners.
对配置文件来说，YAML是很好的格式。但别拿它处理不可信来源的输入；它黑暗角落里藏着恐怖的东西。
For information interchange, JSON and XML do well; the former when low-typed data dominates (JSON's really quite good for that), the latter when you really want to express instances of complex types.
说到信息交换，JSON和XML都表现不错；前者适合低类型化数据占主导的场景（JSON在这方面确实很行），后者适合你想真正表达复杂类型实例的时候。
If you're thinking about using lots of namespaces in your XML, give it a fucking break. Possible or not, the result is awful. BTDT, and added to the pile of badness; when I say it's evil horror, it's a (former) insider's perspective.
如果你琢磨着在XML里大量使用命名空间，赶紧打住。不管行不行，结果都是一团糟。我经历过，而且把它归进了糟粕堆；我说它是个邪恶噩梦，那可是（前）内部人的视角。
To round out the rest of the usual list:
把剩下的常见清单补全：
Properties files are too damn primitive and repetitive.
Properties文件太原始了，而且写起来重复得要死。
TOML's got too many common ways to write the same thing. I always end up confused when trying to read it.
TOML表达同一样东西的方式太多了，我读的时候总是晕头转向。
ASN.1 (BER or DER)? May God have mercy on your soul!
ASN.1（BER或DER）？愿上帝保佑你的灵魂！
>>109440521
>T. Never used an IntelliJ IDE
>T。从没用过IntelliJ的IDE
You can't even comprehend the level of mogging I'm doing against vim and emacsbabbies.
你根本没法想象我在碾压vim和emacs党时有多居高临下。
>>109440521
>Never understood the VSCode/netbeans worship when you can just alt-tab from emacs or whatever text editor you're using and compile in terminal.
>从没搞懂为啥要崇拜VSCode/netbeans，明明可以从emacs或任何文本编辑器里alt-tab出来，在终端里编译就完事了。
Those developers stuck on Windows tend to like using VSCode for its built-in terminal support. It sucks a lot less than the default terminal.
那些困在Windows上的开发者往往喜欢VSCode，因为它内置终端支持。这比自带的默认终端好用太多了。
>Java's garbage collection isn't great
>Java的垃圾回收不咋地
It's about as good as GC gets. Not typically tuned for very low latency (gaming, realtime apps), more for very high throughput (web services, backend processing).
已经差不多是GC的极限了。通常不是为了极低延迟（游戏、实时应用）调的，更多是为了高吞吐量（Web服务、后台处理）。
>>109440156
insanely based
极度正确
>>109440496
the things noobs will do to feel smart
新手为了显得聪明才干出来的事
>>109427918
yes. dotnet core > springboot
没错。dotnet core > springboot
>>109429622
it's like being flung back into the 1990s
感觉像被扔回了1990年代
and not in a cool nostalgic way
而且不是那种酷酷的怀旧方式
>>109440667
>It's about as good as GC gets. Not typically tuned for very low latency (gaming, realtime apps), more for very high throughput (web services, backend processing).
>它已经差不多是GC的极限了。通常不是为了极低延迟调的，更多是为了高吞吐量。
java has multiple GCs, one of them tuned for low latency, but it's not the default.
Java有好几个GC，其中一个是针对低延迟调的，但默认不启用。
>>109440343
>why not just do it with a format that actually fucking makes sense and is efficient for the data/configuration/etc that you want to express
>为啥不用一种真他妈有意义、而且对你想要表达的数据/配置/等等更高效的格式呢
not the Anon but you can easily take this argument a bit further and come to the logical conclusion that for all of the above, you can easily figure out a simpler and much more efficient binary format that supports random access, skipping over irrelevant data, partial compression and probably many other features JSON can't provide.
不是那个匿名的，但你可以轻松把这个论点再推进一步，得出逻辑结论：对上面所有情况，你都能轻松搞出个更简单、效率高得多的二进制格式，支持随机访问、跳过无关数据、部分压缩，以及JSON提供不了的其他一堆功能。
I would also argue that JSON is a very poor fit for configuration files and is not an efficient data transfer format at all compared to most alternatives.
我还会说，JSON对配置文件来说非常不搭，跟大多数替代方案比，它根本不是高效的数据传输格式。 ﹚ 这是文化问题。Java IDE让平庸的开发者能写出海量碎片化代码，还假装能导航，这让IDE变得必不可少，但只是因为他们一开始就助长了这些坏习惯。要不是“给一个只有单个公开方法、毫无状态的类，堆出20个一到三行的辅助方法”在Java圈被广泛接受为“最佳实践”，我永远不会用“内联所有用法，删除方法”这个功能。
>>109440521
It's a cultural thing. Java IDEs allow mediocre developers to write shitloads of fragmented code and still pretend that it's navigable, making them essential but only because they enabled these practices in the first place. I would never have used "Inline all usages, remove the method" if not for the fact that shitting out 20 one-to-three-line helpers for a class with a single public method and no state whatsoever is a widely accepted "best practice" in the Java world.
这是文化问题。Java的IDE让平庸的开发者能写出大量碎片化的代码，还假装这些代码可以导航，所以它们变得必不可少，但仅仅是因为它们最初助长了这些做法。要不是在Java世界里，为一个只有一个公共方法、没有任何状态的类，拉出一堆20个一两行的小工具方法被广泛视为“最佳实践”，我绝对不会用“内联所有用法，删除方法”这个功能。
>>109440805
wtf do you know? you can't even crop an image.
你他妈知道个屁？你连张图都裁不了。
>>109440819
>Java IDEs allow mediocre developers to write shitloads of fragmented code and still pretend that it's navigable,
>Java IDE让平庸开发者写出成堆的碎片化代码，还假装那玩意儿能导航，
it IS navigable. other devs don't have to cater to your tools or the lack thereof.
它确实能导航啊。别的开发者用不着迁就你的工具或你压根没工具。
and 1-3 line methods are not a common practice.
而且1到3行的方法也不是常见写法。
>>109440862
do you even know what you're replying to, retard?
你他妈知道自己回的是啥吗，智障？
I just wrote that I do use IDEs
我刚说了我用IDE。
>>109434978
>le packaged browser retard argument
>又来打包浏览器那个傻逼论点
all serious software packages some type of runtime enviornment with it. the problem with electron is not the chromium instance, its the 6 gorillion web api calls that baseddevs typically abuse with it. try to educate yourself before parroting bullshit you read somewhere else to attempt to feign intelligence.
所有正经软件都会带某种运行时环境。Electron的问题不在于Chromium实例，而在于那些傻逼开发者滥用它搞出来的六百万个web API调用。你他妈先学点东西再鹦鹉学舌，别从别处抄点狗屁话来装聪明。
>>109427918
>is the hate justified?
>这些黑点合理吗？
yes
I blame jaca universities for beinng scabby cheap freeware pimping scumbags
我怪Java的大学，就是一群抠门、卖廉价免费软件的拉皮条渣滓。
>>109441000
>all serious software packages some type of runtime enviornment with it
>所有正经软件都带某种运行时环境
including notable examples such as:
包括这些著名例子：
- MFC applications packaging the whole Windows operating system in every installer
- MFC应用每个安装包里都打包整个Windows操作系统
- dynamically-linked X11 apps packaging their own X server just for the fuck of it
- 动态链接的X11应用为了好玩儿打包自己的X服务器
- Homebrew famously being bundled with its own Xcode installation that gets unpacked next to the one from the App Store
- Homebrew众所周知会捆绑自己的Xcode安装，解压到App Store版旁边
>>109440472
I hate niggers
我讨厌黑人
>>109427918
i genuinely cannot think of a single thing java has over c#/.net
我真想不出Java有啥能压过C#/.NET的。
>>109441171
its ecosystem
它的生态系统。
>>109441339
gradle/maven is not exactly exciting
Gradle/Maven也不算多激动人心。
>>109441395
Compared to MSBuild it is very exciting indeed
跟MSBuild比，那确实够激动人心了。
a decent amount of companies know that java kinda is mind numbingly boring. so they are switching to springboot but with kotlin
不少公司知道Java有点无聊到麻木。所以他们转用Spring Boot，但配上Kotlin。
>>109441405
I'm not using crappy dotnet framework, so i just shove everything i need into .csproj
我不用那破.NET框架，所以我把所有需要的都塞进.csproj里。
>>109441414
If that was actually the case they would be switching to Java lol
要是真那样，他们早就换Java了哈哈。
Companies prefer boring languages
公司就喜欢无聊的语言。
>>109428506
Java Swing is the only cross platform UI library that actually tries to match the look and feel of the OS it's running on. Literally no other library has ever achieved that, in any language.
Java Swing是唯一一个真正尝试匹配所在操作系统外观和触感的跨平台UI库。其他任何语言里的任何库都没做到过。
>>109441443
tcl/tk, and it does it better
tcl/tk，而且做得更好。
>>109441171
Java has better enums (objects instead of values), better anonymous classes (can have methods). Which is a low bar.
Java的枚举更好（是对象而不是值），匿名类也更好（可以有方法）。不过这个门槛很低。
Also checked exceptions (very questionable and Result is preferable, but might be useful when not overused) and type erased generics (people mostly prefer having the type info around anyways).
还有受检异常（很值得商榷，Result更好，但别过度用的话可能还有点用）和泛型擦除（大多数人还是希望保留类型信息的）。
Something more interesting: Microslop is continually ensloppifying dotnet and Brian Goetz has an interim ban on OpenJDK slop while Oracle deliberates.
更有意思的是：微软那帮狗一直在把.NET越搞越烂，而Brian Goetz暂时封了OpenJDK那些烂活儿，等Oracle慢慢琢磨。
But it's true that C# has more things than Java, nullable checks without annotations, object properties without lombok, reified generics, dumping everything in csproj and getting any build you want (debug, release, aot native, bundle the runtime with the program) where Java needs Maven and Graal and jlink and whatever fuckery when dotnet is... dotnet.
但确实C#比Java东西多，没有注解的判空检查、不需要Lombok的对象属性、具体化泛型、把一切都塞进csproj然后得到你想要的任何构建（debug、release、AOT原生、捆绑运行时），而Java得靠Maven、Graal、jlink还有各种破玩意儿，而dotnet就是……dotnet。
Roslyn, architected as a compiler as a service, made it very flexible, allowing you to create things like the polyfill nuget.
Roslyn 被设计成“编译器即服务”，这使得它非常灵活，让你能搞出像 polyfill nuget 这种东西。
Even so, I wouldn't trust Microslop to not fuck everything up so... Java just works.
即便如此，我也不信 Microslop 能不把事情搞砸，所以……Java 就是能用。
>>109441517
c# letting you do assign bit positions (flags) to an enum, and then then letting you do bitwise operations on enums is infinitely more useful than what java has
C# 让你能给枚举赋位位置（flags），然后在枚举上做位运算，这比 Java 有的东西有用得多了。
>>109441543
>bitwise operations on enums
>在枚举上做位运算
use case? sounds retarded.
用例是啥？听起来挺智障的。
>>109441571
webshitter hands typed this post
这帖子是键盘侠瞎打的
>>109441543
The Java EnumSet gives you the bit operations as methods in a type safe way.
Java的EnumSet以类型安全的方式，把位操作封装成了方法。
>>109441605
so no use case then
那这么说来，就没啥实际用处了呗。
>>109441517
With the amount of scamming that goes on in benchmark maxing, I would take any benchmark with a massive grain of salt. Microsoft for example with C# devoted a lot of resources to scam benchmarks at one point in time (there is a talk from one of the devs that worked for MS doing it on youtube somewhere, it's quite interesting).
考虑到基准测试极限优化里那堆造假，任何基准测试我都得抱着极大的怀疑态度来看。比如微软在C#上，有一段时间投入了大量资源去刷基准测试成绩（YouTube上有个在微软干过的开发讲这个的演讲，挺有意思的）。
>>109441691
>Java EnumSet
>Java的EnumSet
fucking dogshit syntax
语法烂得跟屎一样
>>109441750
I do take them with a grain of salt, you can check the source and see unholy intrinsic/unsafe abuse that makes shit absolutely unreadable.
我确实会持保留态度，你可以翻翻源码，看到那些丧心病狂的intrinsic/unsafe滥用，代码根本没法读。
But the truth is that C# has Span<T> and value classes and Java doesn't. Java has Project Panama (verbose) and Vector<T> and Memory<T> are cockblocked until Valhalla.
但事实是C#有Span<T>和值类型，Java没有。Java的Project Panama（啰嗦得要命），而且Vector<T>和Memory<T>被卡着，得等Valhalla出来才放行。
>>109441777
It's not that bad, cmon. I have seen people from Rust like Java enums.
没那么烂吧，别这样。我见过用Rust的人都喜欢Java的枚举。
>>109440521
you don't need ide, vscode, vim or emacs.
你根本不需要IDE，vscode、vim或emacs都不用。
you don't need text editor at all.
连文本编辑器都不需要。
AI agent will write everything for you.
AI代理全给你写了。
>>109429265
Its a steaming hot cup of microwaved camel jizz
那就是一杯微波加热的骆驼精液
Programmers drink it because it hyper accelerates the intake of caffeine and Adderal
程序员喝它是因为能超加速吸收咖啡因和Adderal
>>109427918
nope. its stable, supported and safe. the ecosystem is also really good and the knowledge pool is huge (which is super nice if you are trying to do a project with multiple ppl). 90 percent of the old critiques aren't really applicable anymore if you use the newer versions and utilize the libs. springboot is GREAT as well. i really dislike swing tho but that might be bcs ive only ever had to do swing stuff on projects that were already shitshows. kotlin is a better language and will eventually be a replacement imho but not until its a bit more mature.
不是的。它稳定、有支持、安全。生态也很好，知识库巨大（多人合作做项目时特别好使）。你如果用新版和合适的库，以前那些批评90%都不适用了。SpringBoot也超棒。不过我真讨厌Swing，但可能只是因为我碰到的Swing项目都是本来就已经烂成一锅粥的。Kotlin是更好的语言，最终会取代它，但得等它再成熟一点。
>>109429431
exactly. there is also some unearned reputation in the real dev world as well.
没错，在真实开发圈子里也有一些名不副实的口碑。
the fact that it's so widely used in enterprise also means that there are a lot of java jobs where you are doing pretty mind numbing work. devs associate this with the language but desu maintaining old dusty corporate legacy codebases is always difficult no matter what so its not really javas fault.
它在企业里用得这么广，也就意味着很多Java岗位干的是相当麻木的活。开发者把这归咎于语言，但其实维护那些老旧的企业遗留代码库不管用什么语言都很难，真不是Java的锅。
Call me crazy but I liked the native Java UI toolkit and look and feel from the olden days. I know it's deprecated now but it just looks jank no matter what somehow these days with native UI widgets. It was much better with its own look and feel.
你们可能觉得我疯了，但我就是喜欢Java早年那个原生UI工具包和外观。我知道现在已废弃了，但如今的原生UI控件不管怎样看起来都挺糙的。还是它自己那套外观好用多了。
>>109434584
>>109440043
I started with Java but when writing scipts Javascript is head and shoulders above the rest. Take it as you will.
我是从Java入门的，但写脚本的话JavaScript甩别人一条街。怎么理解随你。
>>109437408
>copy the design from C#
>直接抄C#的设计
no, that one is retarded and just creates a string immediately, encouraging sql and all other kinds of injection vulnerabilities. they want to do something like python t-strings which results in string-pieces + interpolated values, so the database driver etc. can do proper escaping of the values. much better design, another C# fail where they went with "the obvious"
不，那个设计是脑残，直接立刻生成字符串，等于鼓励SQL注入和一堆其他注入攻击。他们想做的是类似Python的t-strings那种，生成字符串片段加插值值的组合，这样数据库驱动之类的可以正确转义那些值。这设计好得多，C#又一个“选了个理所当然的方案”的翻车操作。
>>109438172
all deprecated and will be removed btw., the only remaining unsafety will be the foreign function and memory api
顺便说，那些全废弃了，迟早要移除，剩下的唯一不安全点就是外部函数和内存API了。
>>109427918
>>109427918
i dont know how to code, but my massive project data pipeline is all written in java, incorporates flink and kafka
我不会写代码，但我那个大项目的数据管道全是用Java写的，集成了Flink和Kafka
processing portion of my project uses python
项目里的处理部分用的是Python
i am content
我很满意
>>109444514
the fuck are you talking about, retard-kun? Linq queries are just ast representation of a query and every db library in existence inserts dynamic parameters as named parameters, not verbatim strings inline, when constructing a query string
你他妈在说啥呢，智障君？Linq查询不过是查询的AST表示而已，现在所有数据库库在构建查询字符串时都是用命名参数来动态传参的，不是把原始字符串直接内联进去
>>109429348
>I (and my ai agents) write in Java
>我（和我的AI代理）用Java写
this is where I stopped reading
看到这儿我就不往下看了
>>109445115
and that works well while you sql is kindergarten tier. as soon as you need dynamic common table expressions, stored procs or custom database specific sql, you are back in string construction land with the retarded string interpolation gun aimed at your foot
你那SQL要是幼儿园水平的话这么干还行。可一旦需要动态CTE、存储过程或者数据库特定的SQL，你就又得回到拼字符串的老路上，手里那把智障的字符串插值枪正对着自己的脚
>>109445249
string name = "OP";
string name = "楼主";
string skillLevel = "none";
string skillLevel = "无";
var users = db.Users
这里没有需要翻译的内容。请提供要翻译的英文论坛帖子内容。
.FromSqlInterpolated($"SELECT * FROM Users WHERE Name = {name} AND Skill = {skillLevel})
用 FromSqlInterpolated($"SELECT * FROM Users WHERE Name = {name} AND Skill = {skillLevel})
.ToList();
>>109442275
Same. Old Java programs looked like pure sovl. I liked them back in the day too.
同感。老Java程序看起来特别纯粹。我也怀念当年的它们。
>>109444514
It should be a federal crime to be this retarded. String interpolation is not meant to protect retards from SQL injection.
蠢到这个程度应该判联邦重罪。字符串插值设计出来不是用来保护智障免受SQL注入攻击的。 ┥ 我以前也喷它们。现在跟那些electron垃圾一比，我是真怀念它们
>>109442275
I used to hate on them. These days I sorely miss them compared to electron trash
我以前老黑他们。现在跟那些electron垃圾一比，真是想念得不行。
>>109427918
No I've been using it for over 10 years and probably my only gripe with it is the UI side, wish it had a more modern UI library that was easier to use. Honestly swing was good, I tried Java FX and didn't like it that much when you come from something like React or Angular the FXML tamplates just feel so basic that in the end I gave up and just used raw code instead, no idea if JavaFX is any better now.
不，我用它十多年了，唯一的槽点可能就是UI这块，希望有个更好用的现代化UI库。说实话Swing还不错，我试过JavaFX但不太喜欢——你要是从React或Angular过来，FXML模板感觉太简陋了，最后我干脆放弃直接写原生代码了，现在JavaFX有没有变好我就不清楚了。
>>109440521
>The criticism leveled against IDEs is more valid, I think. It's the same shit with C++. The language is fine but dedicated IDEs add so much bloat. Never understood the VSCode/netbeans worship when you can just alt-tab from emacs or whatever text editor you're using and compile in terminal.
>对IDE的批评我觉得更有道理。C++也一个德行。语言本身没问题，但专门的IDE加了一堆臃肿的东西。一直搞不懂为什么那么多人捧VSCode/netbeans，直接从emacs或随便什么文本编辑器alt-tab切出去在终端里编译不就行了。
Uh, I've tried using text editors for development and they are totally useless. Like, can you even autocomplete? Can you incremental compile? Can you run/debug in a text editor? Can you generate with code templates? Can you resolve git merge conflicts in a text editor? Can you perform save actions in a text editor? Can you mylyn in a text editor?
呃，我试过用文本编辑器搞开发，简直是废的。你能自动补全吗？能增量编译吗？能在文本编辑器里跑/调试吗？能用代码模板生成吗？能在文本编辑器里解决git合并冲突吗？能在文本编辑器里做保存操作吗？能在文本编辑器里玩mylyn吗？
The answer to these questions in a text editor is always
这些问题的答案在文本编辑器里永远是
>no
or
>not without a ton of setup and configuration
>不搞一堆乱七八糟的配置就别想
meanwhile, I get all this out of the box with Eclipse. It just werks.
而在Eclipse里这些东西开箱即用。它就是好用。
>>109441998
>AI agent will write everything for you.
>AI代理会替你写所有东西。
I'm not the least bit afraid of AI taking my job, but I think the person you replied to is one of the people that is afraid. If all you know how to do is edit small code bases in a text editor, AI is going to eat your lunch.
我倒是一点都不怕AI抢我饭碗，但我觉得你回复的那个人就是怕的那类。你要只会拿文本编辑器改点小代码库，AI分分钟把你干趴下。
>>109445249
>he doesn't use Clojure with HoneySQL (where SQL is represented as data structures, trivial to modify, then compiled into strings at runtime with a cache for efficiency)
>他不用Clojure配HoneySQL（SQL以数据结构表示，改起来很轻松，运行时编译成字符串并对效率做缓存）
>>109429265
like every modern company they just had to simplify the logo.
跟所有现代公司一样，他们非得把logo简化了不可。
originally it was the coffee cup and two women.
原来是个咖啡杯和两个女人。
>>109446996
Not understanding the point of text editors is a major blind spot. AI is going to hit you like a truck
不理解文本编辑器的意义是个大盲点。AI会像卡车一样撞上你
>>109443704
Where is Scala? I imagine her styled after Harley Quinn with red gymnastics ribbon
Scala在哪儿？我猜她该是哈莉·奎茵风格，配条红色体操彩带
>>109446996
It's all well and good until the people who designed IDEs to automate the programming process start adding their own onboard LLM and charging you a monthly subscription for the privilege of using their service.
那些设计IDE来自动化编程流程的人，一旦开始塞进自家的本地大模型，再按月收费让你用他们的服务，这玩意儿就全完蛋了。
>>109445349
FormattableString implicitly casts to string, cool design decision. assign your query to a string first and enjoy sql injection
FormattableString隐式转成string，这设计决策真“赞”。先把你的查询赋给一个字符串，然后等着SQL注入吧
>>109446142
similarly, bounds checking is meant to protect retards from getting memory safety wrong. having string interpolation implicitly convert to strings is like the language designers handing you raw pointers and telling you to git gud when it inevitably leads to memory corruption. high level languages provide safety, low level languages provide control. C# gets it wrong constantly, nobody wants to pepper their code with async, nobody wants to read that in out ref bullshit. throwing everything into a language and causing endless churn only benefits the microsoft employees because they can "demonstrate impact". negative impact, but apparemtly that doesn't matter
同理，边界检查是为了保护笨蛋不搞砸内存安全。而字符串插值隐式转成字符串，就相当于语言设计者塞给你裸指针，等内存崩了再跟你说“菜就多练”。高级语言提供安全，低级语言提供控制。C#老是搞错方向，没人想满代码都是async，没人想读那堆in out ref狗屎。把啥都塞进语言里，造成无尽折腾，只便宜了微软员工，因为他们能“展示影响力”。负影响力，但这显然无所谓
>>109448708
>FormattableString implicitly casts to string
>FormattableString隐式转成string
no it doesn't
才不会呢
>>109448845
>string interpolation implicitly convert to strings
>字符串插值隐式转成字符串
it works like this in literally any language and would be pretty shit feature otherwise. But FormattableString doesn't cast to string, so you either know shit or are lying
任何语言都是这么干的，不然这功能就废了。但FormattableString根本不转成string，所以你要么啥都不懂，要么在瞎扯
>code with async
>带async的代码
a non-issue for me, unless you write a library and want to expose both sync and async apis. For application development, a non-issue
对我不是问题，除非你写库还要同时暴露同步和异步API。做应用开发，这根本不算事儿
>out
this one actually sucks balls, I don't like this TrySomething(out result) pattern
这个确实烂透了，我讨厌这种TrySomething(out result)的模式
>ref
very useful sometimes, you would know that if you wrote anything more than a crud
有时候非常好用，你要是写过比CRUD更复杂的东西就知道了
>>109448879
string adjective = "retarded";
string adjective = "傻逼";
string verdict = $"it's {adjective}";
string verdict = $"它就是{adjective}";
Console.WriteLine(verdict);
>>109449160
kek.
Now pass it to FromSqlInterpolated()
现在把它传给FromSqlInterpolated()
>>109449195
there you go
成了
.FromSqlInterpolated($"{verdict}")
FromSql
>>109449295
At this point you might as well upcast everything to object and then you can pass anything anywhere.
到这份上，你不如把啥都上转成object，然后啥都能随便传了。
>>109448202
>AI is going to hit you like a truck
>AI会像卡车一样撞上你
What happens when AI hits a truck? Does the truck give a fuck?
AI撞上卡车会咋样？卡车在乎吗？
>>109446996
>Can you resolve git merge conflicts in a text editor?
>你能在文本编辑器里解决git合并冲突吗？
Yes, I can. I'm not a failure.
能啊。我又不是废物。
>>109427918
They fucked it up in exactly the right ways to make it extremely easy for retards to write code that looks like it works, but doesn't. It's like an anti-Rust.
他们以恰到好处的方式搞砸了，让笨蛋能轻松写出看起来能跑、实际上跑不起来的代码。这就像反Rust。
>>109441063
All the dynamically linked slop expects the runtime to just magically already be there. In practice, it's never there, especially on Linux where you often can't even install multiple versions of the same thing. That's why native Linux distribution is impossible.
所有动态链接的垃圾都指望运行时能魔法般地已经装好。实际上它从来不在，尤其在Linux上，你常常连同一东西的多个版本都装不了。这就是为什么原生Linux发行是不可能的。
>>109427918
the hate needs to be instantiated first using HateFactoryInstantiatorCreatorFactory
仇恨得先用 HateFactoryInstantiatorCreatorFactory 实例化一下
>>109438158
yes, bc u'r a fag
是啊，因为你是死基佬
>>109427918
No. Java is a fine language made absolutely cancerous to use because of jeets and other retards outputting the most horrendous enterprise code imaginable.
不。Java本身是个不错的语言，但被阿三和其他傻逼搞得彻底没法用，他们能写出来最恶心的企业级代码。
I remember enjoying my time with Java a lot, until I had the displeasure of using 3rd party libraries. The amount of pointless bloat and outdated code in them was suffocating.
我记得以前挺喜欢用Java的，直到不幸用了第三方库。里面那些无意义的臃肿代码和过时垃圾多到让人窒息。
>>109428043
Rust, compile to wasm and write code against WASI.
用Rust，编译成wasm然后对着WASI写代码。
>>109457489
This will only cover a fraction of Java features and would require you to run browser or some obscure wasm runtime.
这只能覆盖Java功能的一小部分，而且还得跑个浏览器或者某些冷门wasm运行时。
C# is the real Java alternative.
C#才是真正替代Java的选择。
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